Intergenerational Connection Transcript
Part 1
Eunice Lin Nichols:
I often think there are two trends happening right now inthe United States that very few people are paying attention to, and if theyknew or understood what was happening, it would become much more central to ourconversations. The first trend is that we live in the most age diverse time inhuman history with five generations in the workplace all at the same time, afourfold increase in multigenerational living and a report from the StanfordCenter on longevity shows that we have this unprecedented age diversity withalmost equal numbers of people.
People of every age, from birth to 70 and beyond. And so ifyou think about it, we have the same number of people who are seven years oldas 70. Our society has never been structured that way before. At the turn ofthe century, we had, as you would expect, almost twice the number of youngpeople as older people.
But now we have the same numbers. And so what does that meanfor society? Well, I want to talk about, you know, the second trend briefly,because then we can see how these two trends are interacting with one anotherin ways that can be contentious, but also are ripe with opportunity.
So the second trend that's really important for us tounderstand is that at the same time, we're the most age diverse society, we arealso the most deeply age segregated nation with very few opportunitiesstructurally for generations to connect in daily life, much less to take theirtremendous assets and talents to come together and improve the world aroundthem. If you think about it, when was the last time that you talked withsomebody seriously, uh, who was 25 years younger than you or 25 years older thanyou, even those of us who might say we have kind of an innate desire or longingor connection with people who are older and younger, probably find itchallenging to find actual opportunities to do that in our day to day life.
So when you kind of put the bookends of, age diversity, sideby side with age segregation, it means we're either on a fast path to anexplosive situation of contention and polarization around age difference, or wehave an opportunity to leverage the age diversity, shift the structures on theage siloing and bring us together in ways that could really make the world andour neighborhoods a better place.
Julia Joubert: Could you explain to me and to ourlisteners why this is a conflict that we should care about? And how have youseen through your work how these divisions manifest themselves in society?
Eunice Lin Nichols: Well, that's a great question.And I think one piece that is important to think about when we talk aboutgenerational differences or age divides is that it is actually one of the ismsthat isn't static.
We are all getting older and we've all at some point beenyoung. And so actually focusing on the ways in which we are different by age orgeneration can actually be a portal into deep empathy for the otherdifferences. So having said that, if I think about some, some differencesthough, that are creating this sort of spin on generational conflict.
The list for me would include things like, we have differentvoting patterns in our country where older people vote at much higher ratesthan younger ones. At the same time, there are fewer younger people in electedpositions of power. That creates a dynamic that can cause conflict betweenyoungers and olders in our society.
Ageism is another piece that is actually rampant for bothyoung people and older people. They're experiencing it at different ends of thespectrum, but the results are the same, where our oldest old and our youngestyoung often feel the least represented, the least empowered, most at the whimof the systems that have been created for people in between.
The other area where I see a lot of divide, it's more, Ithink, physical divide than The emotional divide is that older and youngers areoften living in completely separate spaces. Despite the rise in multi-generationalliving, most of us will actually be living in spaces where we don't actuallyhave an older person in proximity to us.
Some of our systems are created that way. We have seniorhomes, retirement communities, young people living in, in spaces where they aremore with their own children-aged peers. It means that while there are so manybenefits to living more like extended family in the most healthiest, best senseof the word, we actually are not able to bring older and younger together inour natural environment.
All of our institutions are somewhat modeled after this, andin between, I would say workplaces for people in the middle have been theprimary functioning place. And then when you are not in your workplace, yougravitate towards, like, the parents club or the young adults club. It's justkind of how we're wired as a society.
And so I feel like that both habituates us to less agediverse spaces and ways of being, and increases the ability for us tostereotype, finger point, or just feel like the other generations are otherthan us.
Julia Joubert: You mentioned Before that, you know,we're, we're living in an unprecedented time in terms of the age divide, yetthere have been people that have said, you know, that this, this conflict andthis intergenerational kind of frustration, disconnect has always existed, andthe fact that we feel “so unusually divided” right now has more to do with theperiod that we're living through rather than any fundamental generationalcharacteristics, and I was wondering what your thoughts on this were. Do youagree with the sentiment? Do you disagree?
Eunice Lin Nichols: Yeah, I feel like the answer isthat it's complex. So on one hand, I do believe if we're older and we can tapinto our earlier empathy for what it was like when we were younger, thatleaning into empathy is always a good thing.
In some ways, the baby boomers of today that some youngpeople point the finger at. Where the rabble rousers back in the 60s, and itcan be easy to forget what that was like to fight against a system that didn'tfeel like it was created for you. Well, frankly, it wasn't created for youngpeople in that sense.
At the same time, I do think there are some things thatfeel. Fundamentally different today that older generations in particular shouldtry and understand so that when young people have an experience that feels likeit's, it's different, unrelatable, and the older people need to say it's notjust the same as when I was young that they can understand that a couple ofthose things include the rise in technology, the speed of change is happeningso quickly and the access to information, both good and bad globally isunprecedented that is shaping young people in a fundamentally different waythan previous generations.
I think tied to that are additional pieces that are, Ithink, much more challenging for young people than they were for oldergenerations back when they were young. I would say the mental health crisisthat has been pointed out is landing differently on young people today, justbecause an older person also had some challenges when they were younger.
Mentally, socially, doesn't mean it's the same as how ayoung person is experiencing it today. The rates of social isolation andloneliness in our country have been called an epidemic by our Surgeon General. Ibelieve he said in his latest report that social isolation and loneliness ishaving a health detriment at the same level as smoking 15 cigarettes a day.
That's new. That's a new way of looking at the mental healthand social isolation crisis that is frankly impacting both young people andolder people. I think when people, when they think about loneliness and socialisolation, the picture you have in your head is a lonely older person who'sisolated, maybe living on their own increasingly disconnected from society. Thedata actually shows that it's young people who are reporting the highest levelsof isolation and loneliness. And onceagain, there can be that that disconnect of them being the most connectedtechnologically. And yet somehow simultaneously the most isolated and then ofcourse we have the pandemic on top of that and young people at a timedevelopmentally when they should be actually connecting and learning from peersand from other people the most all of a sudden their world shrank in a certainway.
While their access to what was happening in the world becamealmost purely digital. So, I'm pointing those things out just to say that whileI think empathy is the key, part of that empathy from older adults needs to bean acknowledgment that for young people,the rate of change is really, Fundamentally shifting their experience.
How might older people lean into that with more humilitywhen they're talking to a young person and really listen to what thatexperience is like today. I think also as a result, young people may have aneven greater sense of a desire to change quickly. They're seeing the changehappen quickly. It feels like the response also needs to be faster than thesystems are allowing. So I think those are some of the tensions that are at thecore.
Julia Joubert: Now, I know that Cogenerate conducteda survey with the University of Chicago and their National Opinion ResearchCenter, where around 1, 500 people of all ages were asked their opinions onThis concept of cogeneration and I remember reading there that almost allparticipants, both young and old, thought that cogeneration is a good idea.
And then on top of that, I think it was 93 percent said thatcogeneration will reduce divisions in our society. But also a large number ofparticipants said that they don't feel like they have access to othergenerations and often had anxiety about stepping on other people's toes ordoing or saying something that might be offensive.
Eunice Lin Nichols: Yeah, tied to to this report thatwe did more recently, we brought together almost 30 young people changemakerswho have experience working across generations to ask them what theirexperience has been like working with older adults, what they learned, feellike they need from older adults and what they also don't need or want fromolder adults.
And I think that's been a nice bookend to the University ofChicago report, is this more qualitative focus group that we did with youngpeople, which I'm happy to dig into if that's of interest. Yes, please. I'dlove to know what do the younger generations actually want or need from oldergenerations?
After this focus group, we pulled out Eight insights fromthat robust conversation and the key insights were that young leaders do valuethe wisdom and experience of elders counter to what some older folks mightthink. But they do want the starting place to be the building of trust andconnection at a human level first.
The third one is young leaders really do want to be heard.They have a voice, they have experiences and they want to be able to contributethat. The fourth is young leaders really do also need tangible support. I thinkwe heard something like, Hey, if you give me your advice, but not connectionsand resourcing, that's less helpful.
If you're at the table, be at the table, think about what itis that you can do to support the things that I'm trying to accomplish in life.I think number five is. I think young people want older adults to know thattheir mental health struggles are, are the norm, are increasingly the norm for,uh, for an entire generation of young people.
I think that's the biggest area where ascribing olderpeople's past experiences and saying, Oh, I can relate to that. This one's alittle different. Young people are saying there's something different here. Tryand understand that and sit in empathy to what this generation is experiencing.The sixth one is a reminder that engaging in productive conflict.
Can be a work in progress. I think this is addressing thefear that older and younger may have that if they come together, they mightstep on each other's toes or that things might, there might be conflict. Ithink younger people are saying, yeah, we expect there might be conflict. Itdoesn't need to be so tidy.
Um, I think as we get older, sometimes we have less appetitefor things that are messy or we feel like we need to present. Like we have allthe answers. I think this is an invitation to say, sit in the messiness. It'sokay, it's a work in progress, but come expecting some mess, and then stay withit. The seventh one is, young leaders don't want to play by yesterday's rules.
I do think that's where we can tap into the empathy for theyoung people we were. I don't know that any young person has ever wanted toplay by their parent or grandparent's rules. I do think young people, as theysay what the rules are that they want, There's a lot of curiosity I have aboutequity, about power sharing, and about a vision for unleashing more change,more good in the world that actually enlivens me.
How can we sit in that? The last one is that young leaderswant co generational leadership. I think sometimes there's a sense of like,wait your turn, wait your time. You're the leaders of the future. I think youngpeople are saying we might be the leaders of now. And while we still needcertain things, can we interrogate the existing leadership models and thinkabout more co generational models where older and younger might work together,lead together and make the world a better place together.
I think that's actually a wonderful vision that they havefor what the future could look like.
Julia Joubert: On that, and I know you haven't had the opportunity to have one of thesefocus groups with the older generation. I'm not sure if that's on its way, butyou do have the previous report that you did in 2022.
What findings did you have from the older generational sidein terms of their wants, their needs? Was it simply, we'd like to share? Or wasthere more to it?
Eunice Nichols: For sure. The University of Chicagofindings did show that older adults want to share what they have learned inlife. But I'll also say our organization has 25 years of experience workingwith a real focus on shifting the viewpoint of how society sees older adults,some things that.
We're so important to me as a young person listening to themwas the fact that they are still looking for experiences that open up theirworldview. I feel like older adults that I have worked with really are at apoint where they want to transition. To doing things where they can add valueand where they can have continued purpose, and they don't need to add value inthe same ways they did before.
And in fact, many of them don't want to do the thing theydid before. So I think there's actually equal interest in older adults in usinterrogating our systems and saying, how might we have a. a longer view ofhelping them stay relevant and taking their skills and translating them towhat's needed in the moment.
Yeah. How much of a role do you feel that community plays inhow connected we are with different generations?
I think our communities and cultures play a big role interms of what we even have access to. I do feel like immigrant communities.Faith communities are two of the places where there are still a lot of olderand younger generations existing, coexisting in the same space, and maybe evensome natural, more natural affinity towards being with each other.
People of different generations and at the same time as as aperson who came from an immigrant culture and community where My elders werevery important to me where I had many aunties and uncles who weren't related tome But still felt like family in my life I'll say just because I'm proximate toan older person doesn't mean that I'm in a friendship with them and or that I'mcollaborating with them to make Our collective world, a better place that oftenstill will take some structure.
I had many elders as a, as a child that were important tome, but there was also, um, because of sort of the reverence of what an elderwas. We were certainly not friends. Uh, it was a one directional mentorship. Ifeel like even in faith institutions, um, there are some faith institutionsthat are frankly dwindling in numbers of young people who are not finding.
Institutional settings, the place where they want to exploretheir spirituality. I've had increasing conversations with. Faith institutionswith the aging congregations about if they feel compelled and want to connectwith younger generations, they're going to need to step outside their church orsynagogue walls and actually go out and be more relevant in the community.
Connect with young people where they are instead of tryingto only think about ways to draw people into their building or their space.These are great habits for us to all be thinking about. How do we go where? Thepeople are that we want to connect with, assuming that they should always cometo us is already a one directional mentality.
So over the course of our conversation, you've highlighted anumber of obstacles, including a lack of opportunity to connect, a lack ofaccess, these siloed and segregated spaces. You also mentioned a generalanxiety about connecting with someone of a different age. I wanted to move nowto solutions. What solutions do you see to some of these issues?
Social isolation and loneliness is a perfect example.Younger people are the most lonely and socially isolated in our country. Olderadults are also isolated. These two could solve each other's problems in manyways, if we just brought them together. I'll give you two other quick examplesaround housing.
Young people are struggling to find affordable housing.Older adults are struggling to age in place and maintain their homes, and theyhave a spare bedroom because they're empty nesters. Once again, we're intriguedby how bringing these two together Could actually solve each other's problems.If an older person opened up their spare bedroom to a young person, you kind ofactually get to address social isolation, loneliness at the same time.
The last place that we're really intrigued by our collegecampuses, higher education has always been thought of as a place for youngpeople. But if you go back to the earlier trends we talked about, one of thereasons we have more, uh, one of the most age diverse societies ever is peopleare living. Longer. If you're going to live significantly longer, it means yourwork life is going to be longer and you need to think about your financesdifferently. Older people are thinking about how to sustain another 20 yearspossibly of career. And what does that mean for their dwindling finances ifthey are going to be retired for a long time?
Colleges could play an incredible role as they transformtheir thinking on what their core purpose is. If they start to think about howthey might be a place for people in midlife and older life to come re skill, upskill, re career, the impetus is going to be to create an age segregatedprogram for older adults.
These are the sorts of places and structures that get usexcited when we think about what's possible. I will bring up one other piecethat might be of interest, which is last year, there was a new report that cameout called the Belonging Barometer that was looking at the state of belongingin America.
And the whole report is interesting, but the part that Ituned into through my generational lens is this concept of unbelonging, which Ihad never thought about. I don't heard about before or thought about, but it'sactually a deeper level of not belonging when you used to feel like youbelonged, and then we're told or had some indication that you no longer belong.
And I think about how in our intergenerational work,sometimes the most painful piece for somebody who is older is the sense thatthey used to belong in the workforce and their primary career when they werepart of their neighborhood or society and what it feels like to have thatbelonging stripped from you to no longer.
Be part of something or to be told that you are not neededanymore and for young people who arejust starting to find their sense of belonging. That is a gift they can give toan older person to say, I still need you. I still want you for these reasons atthe same time as young people are struggling with where they belong to have anolder person be an anchor to them.
And say, I see you, maybe I can't relate to or evenunderstand everything you're going through. There's a stat in the belongingbarometer that talks about when two people come from greater difference and areconnected, become friends, there's actually a little bump up in their sense ofbelonging. beyond when the two friends have many similarities.
My interpretation of that is when somebody who is quitedifferent from you, in this case generationally, sees you and says, I'm herefor you, the sense of belonging is greater because they, you must be greatbecause you're, you're not designed to actually be together.
Julia Joubert: That is such a beautiful sentiment. Itall comes down to belonging.
So as we wrap, how do I, as an individual, begin to bridgethese divides, build connections, and maintain relationships, in spite of thesegenerational differences that I might see and experience? And also, there's often this narrative ofyounger generations needing to be the ones to break cycles and rebuild.
I guess another question of mine was, is it ourresponsibility as the younger generation to take the initiative?
Eunice Lin Nichols: Well, you're tapping into some ofthe The fraught of, of the narratives we, we tell ourselves in our heads,right? You're a young person and why is it on me to approach the older personto, to spark a relationship?
Or maybe even would that older person even want to take thetime to do that for an older person, I think there is probably some fear of notwanting to be presumptuous. Well, one type of older person might. Worry thatthey would be presumptuous that they said, Julia, how would you like to be in arelationship with me where we could actually explore each other's life storiesand interests?
Maybe that feels really weird. I don't think we have asociety. We're just dropping that in the conversation feels the most natural.Right? And so I would say part of what our. University of Chicago surveyshowed. And the reason that kind of surveying is so important is to take offthe table the thought that older and younger people don't want to be together.
We want it. So some of my suggestions to counter that is, Ithink, let's lean into the reality that we know we each have what the otherneeds. And that we just have to pull ourselves out to be able to offer that.But I think we have to start with relationship. I want to circle back tosomething that I mentioned, but then didn't go deep into, which is this focusgroup we did with 30 or so young changemakers who have mostly, most of themhave experience working across generations.
And some of the things they said, because I think they, theycan help us with this question. Um, one is they confirm that young leaders thatthey know and that they've worked with really do value the wisdom andexperience of elders. But when an older person just drops in unsolicitedadvice, that actually exacerbates a power dynamic that doesn't always lead to adesire for more conversation and more connection.
And so how do we, can we think about how we might, as withany good relationship, start with. Just understanding who that person is,connecting on a human level first before we drop in any kind of wisdom orexperience. I think it's a, I think it's, Young people saying, I want to beknown so that in our relationship, the things that you've learned and thewisdom, which I know you have can actually be held in the container of me.
And the same is actually true on the other end. So I, I lovestarting with a sense of hearing one another's life stories. And then I wouldsay, finding shared interests. We talked about music. We talked about popculture movies. These are things that are less contentious, and we can come toit with great joy.
And frankly, we're seeing intergenerational collaborationswork out in ways that are non polarizing. You see it and it just feels likelove, creativity and connection. Let's start there, instead of digging rightinto a conversation about our different politics, for example, and then third,which I'm learning from a lot of the social innovators we work with is howmight we find something to work on together.
Starting at that point of shared interest and shared problemsolving, so starting to do something with somebody from an older generation oryounger generation, where the mutual benefit is felt, I think, can also be akey. I would not want to leave our conversation with the thought that it is upto the individual alone to come up with this.
Some of the things we've talked about are, in the meantime,if you see somebody, there are things we can do, but there is a systemsproblem, the siloing of older from younger that exacerbates the whole. And so Iwould say if anybody is hearing this and that they. And they work for aninstitution. It could be, and this actually, uh, is all of us.
If you work in a place where you have some amount of, ofcontrol over the way you do things, if you're part of a faith institution, ifyou are part of a mom's club, if you are, if you volunteer at a local shelteror food bank, if you go to school, once again, if you open your eyes, you'llsee the systems that are there.
Keeping older and younger apart. And, and I think it is upto those of us who are designing and running, facilitating or leading programsto ask the question, why is it this way? Might it be better if we actuallyconnected with, fill in the blank, older people or younger people doing this,this thing that we're doing.
It means if you're a college professor, you could thinkabout how to connect your students with older adults in the community. In atime when kind of town gown relationships can be contentious, how might youhelp students actually get to know some of the townies and the older adultsthat have lived there for decades in the service of learning?
If you have a youth group in your church, how might youcollaborate with, with the, with the Older folks that are meeting probably at 7a. m. for breakfast to connect and say, how might we find a mutual time forthese guys to come together and do a service project together? What might theylearn from each other?
Even in the workplace, we have thought a lot aboutdifferent, more distributed models of leadership. I stepped into a coleadership role with our founder, and that has been a wonderful experience forboth of us to actually demonstrate what co generational. Leadership and powersharing might look like many of us may have the ability to think even about howwe staff teams in intergenerational ways in our workplaces.
So I think we'll, we'll all have some avenues of control andthose who have more ability to shape systems can actually craft our, oursettings to experiment with bringing older and younger together in ways thatcan benefit both.
Part 2
Kierstan Belle: Well, I guess it's a double- edgedsword because I've grown up being raised by my great grandmother primarily andso I've grown up to reverence my elders and older people from a specificgeneration and at the same time also feeling sort of like having to stay in achild's place because of that. So even as I've grown as an adult, I kind ofstill feel that way a little bit and feel like an imposter and sort and somecertain spaces because I'm like, I'm just a kid, but realistically I'm a full grownwoman with two children.
Julia Joubert: And for you, Maria, growing up, whatwas your interaction with older people?
Maria Banks: I have a similar perspective or lens. Iremember a reverence to my grandmother, in particular, who was a very strongvoice and a very strong presence. And I recognize that through my mom andthrough my aunt. But I remember interactions specifically with my mom.
Where the tension I felt was do as I say, not as I do, Ifeel like that caused some tension because there's clearly some, I feel thatthere's some hypocrisy in that, or I don't feel like I can speak on thosethings because to speak would be considered too much. disrespectful. Uh, myaunt, on the other hand, did not embrace that.
And so I found that she and I hung out quite often, a lottogether. And so I, I felt embraced by my aunt and a godmother. So often peoplewho were not as directly related. But my aunt was an anomaly to an extent. So Ido appreciate that.
Julia Joubert: Kierstan, I'm curious, did you feelsimilarly or did you have a different experience?
Kierstan Belle: Pretty similar. Actually, I was just noddingmy head and with everything that Maria was saying, because I'm like, yeah,yeah, yeah. Um, I had one of those anomaly aunts too, that pretty much kind oftook me under her wing. And I spent a lot of time with her too, as a child,because of the way that I was raised.
I just like to berespectful of people, but I also choose to be heard, and so I make it a pointto let people know, whoever it is that I may be interacting with that, becauseI also have a tone. And so I'm not disrespecting you, but I also, because ofthe way that I was raised, I also feel a lot of times that I have to defendmyself when really I'm just like stating and speaking my truth.
Julia Joubert: Did either of you have misconceptionsabout people who were older than you or younger than you before working soclosely with each other, where there may be expectations of, oh, well, theseyoung ones there, they just kind of come in with their ideas. They have no ideathey haven't lived life or maybe you're like, oh, these older people are kindof just stuck in their ways and they're not going to change.
Were there any misconceptions like that for either of you,Maria?
Maria Banks: So I'm processing a little. I think whatI, what I process now is that, and to your point, Julia, just trying to findvoice and agency was very difficult. And so even within the confines or thestructure of what could be perceived as a, um, a healthy family system, I thinksome of the rigidity kind of suppressed the young curious person that I shouldhave been, that I could have been. And so I think because that was neverchallenged, I just believe that older people always had this, this privilege.This entitlement to respect, and that's what I was expected to do was torespect and not question. So I, I've always looked at the older generation aspeople to revere, to respect and lost voice.
Yeah, because, because they all, they all would always sayto me, you know, you ain't grown, sit down, you ain't grown. So, so when I got grown, so to speak as anadult, it's still kind of in my head, like, well, am I grown now? Am I an adultnow? So to your point, Kirsten, I, this,this comment just resonates with me.
I was often told you'll never know until you're a parent.And at some point, I remember being so frustrated, so angry, because it feltlike Okay. So right now I'm never going to be smart enough. There's no need toquestion. There's no need to have a conversation Because I'm I'm not a parentand so I'm just not smart enough now.
Julia Joubert: You've both mentioned specifically inthe realm of kind of familial relationships some challenges that you'dexperienced. What challenges have you experienced working with andcommunicating with people of different generations outside of the familial space? Maybe we can start with you, Kierstan.
Kierstan Belle: Um, well, for me, I want to be mindful ofhow I say this, but of course I'm a young African American woman, and so theolder generation who are mostly surrounded by where I live are predominantlywhite.
And with that comes a different perspective, a differentview, different political views. And so in Adams County, where I live, withinthe borough of Gettysburg, where I live, it's primarily Democratic, but outsideof that, it's primarily Republican. And so, within encountering people from adifferent generation, it's not just a different generation, it's also differentpolitical views, it's also different, um, ethnic backgrounds, and so I've justhad to sort of meet people where they are, but also try to, um, tiptoe so theycan kind of meet me where I am.
And with that, I kind of felt like I was wearing a mask alittle bit and not being able to be my authentic and true self. And it wasn'tuntil urban roll action, actually, that I found my voice and was able to sortof stand up on my own two feet and be like, Yes, I'm here.
Julia Joubert: So how does your interaction withMaria How does that differ in terms of feeling seen, heard, in spite of yourage difference and the generational divide that the two of you have?
Kierstan Belle: Whenever we were within our fullprogram group, I was kind of like always looking in her direction or alwayslike listening for what it is that she would say or how she would interact withother people within our program. And so I was, it just kind of felt natural.And she's always kind of been like my go to person whenever I needed. Ashoulder or an ear.
Julia Joubert: Was age ever a factor for you? Did youever see that when engaging with Maria?
Kierstan Belle: No, and honestly, until I learned ofher age, I thought she was a lot younger than what she actually is. Just, just because.
Maria Banks: Thanks Kirsten.
Kierstan Belle: Just because of the way that she interacts and she just has this opennessabout her and this way that she has of speaking with people and interactingwith people that she takes her time and she wants to get across what it is thatshe means.
She says exactly what she means and I can wholeheartedlyappreciate that.
Julia Joubert: And for you, Maria, what challengeshave you experienced? And then to also reflect on how it might be differentworking with Kirsten now.
Maria Banks: My lens and my lived experiences did anddid not, um, create opportunities for me. And so I think when I think about whoI'm interacting with and who I'm intersecting with, I'm going to always hold some reverence to older people.
And I'm absolutely okay with that. What I hold tension withis now I have to do it because. There's a rule. So I think that carries me intolike my current situation. I work with youth and it will be easy for me to say,well, I'm older than you. And this is how you should be doing things because ofthe way that I was brought up.
I feel like if I can recognize. Where things were notaligned for me and where I've come from in that lens, then I think it makes itsafer, especially for young people that I'm, I would hope that it makes itsafer for young people that I'm, that I'm working with so that I don't judgethem so that I don't silence them so that I don't make my interaction about mewhen it really is about them.
Julia Joubert: Would you say that. You can think backand say, actually, you know, I have done that. I have, I have, I have kind oflike enforced my generational power?
Maria Banks: Yes, absolutely. And I'll go even a stepfurther. I would even take some privilege, especially with students of colorand interject that or project that, yeah, I'm going to speak to you from myperspective.
I need to step back from this and recognize that. And whileI feel like I have some voice and, and can acknowledge where things weremisaligned for me, this is not about me.
Julia Joubert: Kierstan, to come to you, you're aleader of this group at Urban Rural Action. How does it feel to be, quoteunquote, in charge of people who are considerably older than you?
Kierstan Belle: So scary. It feels scary. Being in charge of people whoare considerably older than me. Yeah, it is scary, but at the same time, I tryto meet them where they are so they can meet me where I am. And when I say that,I mean to just simply interact with themin a genuine way so that we can get to know each other.
And then we can be on the same level regardless of theposition because then When the position does show its face, because at somepoint it has to, right? Because of the program that we're in and what it isthat we have to do. But whenever that time presents itself, the respect willautomatically be there, I hope.
And so that's when we can get into these genuineinteractions because the respect is already there, you know of me, I know ofyou, in a way that we can communicate and interact that allows us to not engagein these weird power dynamics
Julia Joubert: In the first half of this program. Ispoke to the co founder of another nonprofit co generate.I spoke to EuniceNichols and we spoke about a number of things, but one of them It was aboutthis idea that intergenerational connection can sometimes feel quite onedirectional in the learning in thatit's, you know, a kind of a top down in that, you know, there's thisexpectation that older people have knowledge to impart to younger people andyounger people shall receive it and process it and use it, but just listeningto the two of you, I'm seeing that it, it isn't, at least for you, very, veryone directional that the learning seems to be happening in both ways. And I'mwondering whether each of you could maybe give me some examples of ways inwhich you have learned from each other from your time working together.
Kierstan Belle: I just have to go back to thisincident that we had within our team. We were having a team discussion at oneof our team meetings, and the subject matter had to do with what I was goingthrough personally within my work outside of Urban Rural Action. And so one ofour team members, because Maria was just trying to clarify what it is that Iwas saying and the perspective that I was coming from, and another one of ourteam members sort of raised their voice and sort of came across the table atMaria, not in a way that was like we thought maybe something physical might godown, but in a way that it was just alarming in a way that Maria felt attackedas she should have felt attacked.
The tone of the conversation later changed. And so leavingthat situation. I thought, you know, everything was okay, quote unquote, but ittruly wasn't. And so Maria made it apparent, like, you did not check onme. And, As a team leader, I had toremove myself from the like the heaviness of the situation and recognize myposition within this team and be like, sorry, no, I did not check on you.
And again, the way Maria always reminds us that this is notabout you, right? This is not about me. There's also another person on our teamwho's older than Maria, someone who's of different race and age and politicalideological views. And Maria has just kind of bridged the gap between them in away that I didn't think, I didn't see it happening so fast.
And it happened in a way that was, I don't, I don't know if it felt natural forMaria, but it looks like, like the pieces of the puzzle just kind of cametogether in a way that she was able to work with this woman and bridge theirdifferences and move along within our project and team dynamic. So just to kindof see Maria, just do what Maria does and just be like, okay.
I think and feel this way, you think and feel that way, buthere's where we can meet in the middle and move along. That was, that was coolto see. It's the way that she speaks, like I've never truly heard Maria raiseher voice, even with all the tension that goes on in our team, like she justhas this sort of calmness about her.
And I truly admire that a lot. And she just moves with thisgrace. And that's how I truly want to be and move with that grace.
Julia Joubert: Maria, what have you learned fromKirsten in your time working together?
Maria Banks: Ithink what resonates with me, I was already outside of my comfort zone becauseI'm from a, uh, Franklin County.
And so Gettysburg is in a different county and it's about,you know, 30 minutes away. So safe spaces, especially the past three or fouryears has been important for me. And so this was new. This was very, very new.And so to be with a group of people that I have don't know at all and have notintersected with at all, I knew that it was going to be a challenge.
So to see a black person. A black woman felt wonderful,first and foremost. I think she's a, she's a forward thinker. She's, she's, sheenvisions things and then can succinctly put all of that together in a timelymanner. I don't have the ability to do that and I admire her for that again,not, not holding tension, but just like, yeah, like I want to be that quick,that sharp.
And so she has, she has this way of, of refining theroughness. There's a roughness to someof our meetings and Kirsten can put a hard pause on that, this is what I heard.Hey, what about this? So she can shift. She can definitely shift. And I thinkthat has been so important for our group so that we don't get stuck.
Because I think there are times when we have gotten stuck.And so I've seen, I've seen Kierstan as this refiner.
Julia Joubert: Kierstan, to come to you, why is it soimportant to spend time with people from different generations?
Kierstan Belle: I see different generations kind ofas like the heart and head of the world.And so when we can get our hearts and minds to consistently agree, we can be aninspiration to others who want to do the same.
And that kind of gives me a sense of wholeness. and apositive outlook towards the future. And so with the older generation, therecomes that wisdom. There comes that sense of discipline and routine and kind ofa matter of fact way of doing things just because they've come from a space anda time where that was necessary.
And now, because of technology and all these otheradvancements, it's not that necessary, but it, but on the flip side of that,it, It absolutely is necessary because we still have to come back to who we areas people and as human beings. We can't let these things that we've made forthe future hinder us and cripple us.
We are the heartbeat of one another, so we have to cometogether. We have to do it together, we can't do it alone. Because that's notthe way human beings are made. We're made to love and build connections, and sowe need that. It's, it's crucial for us to remain healthy and sound, and buildthat social capital that we need to be able to create social change.
and social profit. We have to be able to do things in theold way and mix it with the new way so that change happens, right? We have tobe able to advance, but we, again, we can't get lost in who it is that we trulyare. We have to remember who we are at the core, regardless of what's going onaround us or what's going in with the world.
And if we continue to be separated within our generationsand not see each other and hear each other. Nothing is ever going to change and everything is going to get worse andworse and worse.
Julia Joubert: Maria, do you have any thoughts to addto that?
Maria Banks: I would agree, Julia. If we stay siloed,then I miss interacting with people who can offer me wisdom.
As, as Kierstan mentioned, I also miss dialogue and truthfrom their perspective. If I, if I think about a sandwich, they're on one side,youth are on the other side, and I'm kind of right there in the middle. I toowant to feel acknowledged and affirmed and significant because I have a story.I want to have some agency over.
What I do, where I work and how I can contribute. And so Ineed those who are, who are older than me to be willing to be flexible and tolisten to that. Conversely, I need to beable to model that for our youth. I feel that that is equally important for ouryouth, because what I want to is where do our values.
cross? Where do our needs cross? Where are we intersecting?I think that's so important. And so Kirsten is right, the head and the heart,but I know that we're siloed on so many levels. I don't do TikTok and Facebook very well. To me, thegirl, but in order, but in order for me to be able to, to connect with the youth, if that'simportant to me, then I need to sit in their space and not ingratiate in theirspace, but sit in their space and acknowledge that, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm not,I'm not down with this.
However, if this is how I need to communicate with you, ifthis is how I can hear you, Then help me understand that.
Julia Joubert: What you've both said there is such afantastic real life example of what Eunice Nichols actually shared in part oneof this program. This idea of I might not relate to you, but I see you and ithas significant impact.
Nichols referenced the 2023 belonging barometer, for example. And a step that that study showed wasthat when two people from. greater difference, connect, and become friends, youactually see an increase in their sense of belonging beyond when, say, twofriends who know each other and have many similarities come together.
So connecting in spite of difference is clearly worth it.Knowing this, what advice would you have for someone as a first step to makingthat connection happen? Maria?
Maria Banks: I am not a political person andonly learned within the past six, sevenyears of just how siloed we are and how systems, plural, can, can benefit otherpeople, can oppress and build up other people.
And I did not realize just how entrenched I was and howuninformed. I was in the systems where I work and where I worshipedspecifically, which is my life, right? I would say that's 90 percent of mylife, but it's more than 90 percent of my life. And what I have, what I found, One blessing was to take a Circles classwith Eastern Mennonite University.
And I will never forget being given an opportunity toexpress my feelings, my thoughts, all of that. To lament based on a horribledark past. Time in our nation where a black man was killed by a white policeofficer, our two professors started circle by apologizing. These were two whiteprofessors. And I only say that because it mattered to me.
It mattered to me. They opened circle profoundly. I believe. Genuine, emotional, being given the space toshare my lament, what I was feeling, I'd never experienced that, where I work,where I worship, never experienced that. If that's where people are. If that'swhere people are, I think it's important that necessary, and I would say safespaces, brave spaces be created for people that way.
If someone feels that way, allow them to say that. Allowthem the opportunity to say that. Create a space where they can say that. Andthen, even if you have a question, that question can begin the dialogue. It'srisky. It's risky to say it because I don't know who's in the space that I'mwith, but it might also be risky to hear it.
But I think we have to move beyond that risk and know that Istill need to say it. I still need to say it. And maybe someone needs to hearit. And then we can begin the dialogue. So even if it feels bad, I've been ableto say, this feels bad. This feels awkward. This feels awful. I feel tension. Istill need to say it.
If it feels awkward, then someone needs to say, that justfeels awkward. That's step one. And that's step two. Hopefully that's abeginning. Hopefully that creates opportunities for us to at least be honest,genuine, and risky. We're having dialogue. So that's, that's what I wouldshare.
Kierstan Belle: I would just say, just to piggybackoff of what Maria was saying, just to be intentional with that communication, let that communication be open,create a safe space for that communication to happen, to allow thatcommunication to happen.
And your intention has to be pure. It has to be genuine,unequivocal with no ulterior motives. It has to be for the sake of theconnection and you have to. Like Maria said, just ask those questions and, and,and it's okay because like Maria said also she has a story and then I have astory, Julia, you have a story, everybody has their story and it is our storiesthat make up the world and the communities that we live in, our communities arejust empty spaces without the people who live and walk in.
And, and breathe here. It would just be a shell, a ghosttown. And, and I say that with a little bit of humor, because I live inGettysburg where the Civil War happened, but that is what it is. You know, wehave to be able to want. To communicate and if you're looking to build thosegenerational gaps, you have to want to be able to communicate.
You have to be willing to listen to those stories and youhave to be just willing to say hello. That's that's where it starts. Just bewilling to say hello. If I can add, I would love for us to give each other theopportunity to intersect and hold that space. That's a gift. And I'm not sayingthat that there's a perfection to that.
But we all have the capacity, I feel, for that. We just haveto practice that.